Are Children “Little People”?
Posted by Laurie
Last Friday night my husband and I were out on a date night. We went for drinks at a nearby bar after dinner. It was a nice evening, until we encountered a child – a little girl, in the lounge at the bar, with her dad. Given, it was only 8pm, but still, a toddler at a classy bar that does not serve food on a Friday night?
And this was no saintly child. She was running around blowing out all the candles (quite a metaphor for killing the romance), collecting seat cushions, climbing bar stools, pouring water into the candle holders, and then drinking from them. One of the bartenders ran to clean up her new mess every few minutes. “A terror,” I heard the bartender mumble to the other bartender.
The terror’s dad watched. The few times he tried to stop her she would kick and scream.
After observing this nonsense for 15 minutes I went over to ask the dad how old she was because she seemed so unmanageable (I said this in as nice a tone as possible). She’ll be three in April, he said. Then he admitted with a guilty look, yes, she is unmanageable and this isn’t even her at her worst. She’s bossy and demanding all the time.
Then this father said one of the strangest things I’ve ever heard: “She’s probably so independent because I didn’t want to baby her when she was little. I try to let her figure things out for herself. I believe that children are little people.”
I didn’t contradict him, it wouldn’t be polite and I didn’t want to seem like a judgmental mom. But in my mind I thought, “Are you kidding me?!!?” Aren’t we supposed to baby babies? And, children are not little adults. They don’t have the awareness or emotional control needed for self-discipline. That’s why we as parents have to discipline our kids and give them choices with consequences, as in, if you hit someone at the playground you will have a time out, and if you hit again, we leave. Eventually the child learns self-discipline: he decides not to hit because he wants to go on the slide another dozen times.
I kept my opinion to myself, but I do wonder, perhaps there are different and valid ways to raise kids. But, is the “children are little people philosophy” a good one? Should we really take children to bars?
What do you think about the idea that children are little people? And, what do you think about kids at bars?
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This entry was posted on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010 at 12:38 pm and is filed under Parenting. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response.
Oh. My. God. That father is making a huge, huge, huge mistake that will come to bite him in the butt, if it has not already. That poor little girl is just crying out for someone to set some limits for her! It boggles my mind when parents say that they want to give their children (LITTLE ones, not teens) a “say” in how they’re raised. Well, duh, if you ask a 2 year old to make choices, guess what? They’re going to make very, very poor ones, if they can make them at all. If you could access a rational part of a 2 year old’s brain, it would say, “Dad. Please. I’m two. Take me home and put me to bed, otherwise I’ll never go on my own.”
Boggles. My. Mind.
Denise
Interesting post! Too bad for that dad and especially for his daughter! We’ve definitely brought our son into restaurant/bars, thanks to the no-smoking-indoors law in MN. More often when he was asleep in the infant carrier, and now we try go early when he’s less ornery and there are fewer people to disturb. I read a comment once from someone that I totally agree with – it’s not really fair to the people who HAVE paid for a babysitter to have to listen to YOUR kids running around and being loud. Having said that, I’ve definitely had the loud kid and try to extend grace to the choices other parents make…
There seems to be this false dichotomy in our some segments of the parenting society that you either squash their little spirits or let them run wild. There also seems to be this idea that if we do parenting right, our children will like it. The backlashes back and forth against too much control and too much permissiveness in our society have left it hard to find the middle ground.
The research shows that the parenting that gets the best outcomes (responsible, confident, empathetic, productive people) is freedom and choices WITHIN LIMITS appropriate for the child, and the child having logical consequences for behavior. A three year old should not be choosing how to behave in a bar. She should be choosing what color cup she wants her juice in or whether she wants to put on her shirt or pants first.
“Do you want a blue cup or red cup?”
“Red!”
“Here’s your red cup.”
“No, I want blue!”
“You chose red. You can choose blue next time.”
“WAAAAAAH!” And when little precious throws her red cup, “You choose not to have juice now. We can try later.” The parent really won’t have to go through this too many times if they are consistent.
When they learn early on that their choices have consequences and they have to deal with that and they won’t be saved, they learn to take responsibility for those choices.
If it seems harsh to hold a three year old to her (appropriate) choice, here’s the other scenario:
“Red!”
“Here’s your red cup.”
“I want blue!”
“I’ll pour it in the blue cup.”
“No, I want the Micky Mouse cup!”
“Um, ok, I’ll clean it out.”
“No, I want to drink out of the syrup bottle!”
“Well, I guess I can empty it out . . .” When does it end? When our patience runs out, and the child doesn’t learn what the real limits are on her behavior.
I wonder when that Dad was hoping that girl would learn self-control and responsibility for her actions. At 8 when she’s getting kicked out of school? At 16 when she gets her car?
I agree that we need to give our children choices with consequences, but at the same time you have to think that your child HAS a totally different state of mind and I disagree that you should form their limits and choices around a disciplined adult lifestyle.
Instead i have a tried to setup a environment where my children can flourish AS children, with lots of family around to play, activities to get them into, and sure restrictions when we cannot offer a free environment for our children.
But it is important for people to treat children with a great deal of respect. They may not have developed aptitudes for what we consider important, HOWEVER their capacity for learning is extraordinary compared to adults.
As far as bringing your child to a bar at night, that would be a case of setting up a situation that is not being very thoughtful for a kid’s state-of-mind. I would only do it if it was planned out to be more open / family oriented, where yourself and relatives can hold the child and bring them around to show them off, without worry that they will be breaking something. Those types of places are few and far between for us.
It was my understanding that people under the age of 21 are not allowed in bars that do not serve food.
If the kid is running amok at home, it is that parents right to parent as they please. If it is in public and the kid is running amok and bugging me, I’d be telling the kid to go back to his father. I am sure putting a social “dent” in their evening would help.
If it was really bad, I would comment to the father or to the manager. I know taking an almost 3 year old anywhere can be nightmarish.
What the hell was the guy doing at a bar that does not serve food with a kiddy wink anyway?
I think that dad misunderstood something, somewhere along the line. He is right… you should give toddlers choices, but not the way he is doing it. They should be something like “It is bedtime. Do you want the blue pajamas or the green pajamas?”
Yes, they ARE little people. Little, untrained people. Their tender little hearts will not be permanently crushed learning how to act, and it certainly wouldn’t hurt daddy to have a drink at home rather than terrorizing the bar with an undisciplined, spoiled brat.
They need to learn in the most loving way possible that they’re not always going to have things they way they want them, and that life is not, in fact, fair. The sooner and gentler, the better.
Daddy is not going to keep his baby girl off of this stripper pole this way.
First he’s at a bar? Was he drinking? I would never drive with my little ones in the car if I had been drinking even if it was only 1! Second my 18 month old gets choices like an apple or a banana? Blue socks or Yellow socks? Or what sleep n’play her 3 month old sister will wear. That’s it. I decide when things are going to happen, where we go and when. My children are children not little adults and as the get older yes I will give them more choices but for now mommy is 100% in charge.
Children are little people, but there is a different between little people and adults. Children are supported and adults support them when it comes to living arrangements, etc.
There fore when you pay the bills you can do and act as you want, until then it is my way as the parent and adult. End of story.
My ex pulled the bar thing with me years ago. He had the children on week end. My friends and i went to a bar. I seen him there with the kids. Told my friends if i go in there it won’t be pretty. We left, but i never left the kids with him over night again, let alone a Friday or Saturday night. I did make sure he didn’t leave with them when leaving the bar.
Debbie
You have way more patience than I would have mustered at the time. After giving several dirty looks I would not have been kind enough not to contradict him. I would have said, as nicely as possible, sure… kids are people, but if we don’t teach them how to be good people, how will they ever learn. Generally I am a nice person but, when I’m on a date with my husband, I don’t want someone else’s kid ruining it
Children are little people but not little adults.
I despise people who let their children terrorize their public surroundings because then some stranger ends up yelling at the children and the children don’t even get the proper discipline… they just get yelled at by a stranger and then maybe by their parent.